Founded By:    |  _                        _______
 Guardian Of Time |  __      N.I.A.   _      ___   ___  Are you on any WAN? are
   Judge Dredd    |  ____     ___    ___    ___     ___ you on Bitnet, Internet
------------------+  _____    ___    ___    ___     ___  Compuserve, MCI Mail,
  \           /      ___ ___  ___    ___    ___________  Sprintmail, Applelink,
   +---------+       ___  ___ ___    ___    ___________    Easynet, MilNet,
   | 01DEC90 |       ___   ______    ___    ___     ___    FidoNet, et al.?
   | File 67 |       ___    _____    ___    ___     ___ If so please drop us a
   +---------+               ____     _     __      ___        line at
                              ___           _       ___
        Other World BBS        __
           Text Only            _    Network Information Access
                                       Ignorance, There's No Excuse.

                 Network Thought Machine [3] & SNA Networks [1]
                   Guardian Of Time/Judge Dredd/BBS Community


"SNA Networks Part I" : Enterprise Systems Journal
 Judge Dredd

SNA Support For Multivendor Environment

 IBM firmly believes that open, fair competition is the best way to ensure that
the full potential of information and communications technologies is realized
for the benefit of the customers.  As evidence of that belief, IBM offers:
   - An open network design that encourages SNA attachments w/published
   - Long-standing support for international standards, for example X.21, X.25
     and Open Systems Interconnection (OSI).
   - Practical help to ensure that customers can achieve information network
 People who need to connect their IBM to non-IBM computer systems require a
common method for communicating b/w these systems.  Dissimilar hardware &
software architectures and data encoding schemes require that the transfer of
information b/w these systems be achieved by agreed-on communications
procedures.  This intelligent exchange of information and programs via
process-to-process communications is called 'interoperability'.  The method by
which information is transferred b/w communicating systems over physical media
is referred to as 'connectivity'.
 The following additions to SNA, support communications in a multivendor
   - OS|/Communications Subsystem (CS) and OSI File Services
   - IBM's Transmission Control Protocol/Internet Protocol (TCP/IP) for
     mainframes as well as PC's.
   - The IBM Series/1 Programmable Communications Co-Processor
   - SNA Open Communication Archetectures (OCA)
   - Open Systems Network Support (OSNS)
   - Open Systems Transport and Session Support (OTSS)
   - General Teleprocessing Monitor for OSI
   - OSI X.400 Message Transfer Facility program and the X.400 offerings for
   - The IBM Series/1 EDX family of products
   - The AIX family of products

Open Communication Architectures (OCA)

 The announcement of OCA described the SNA architectures that extend the SNA
benefits into mixed IBM and non-IBM networks.  Major goals:
   - Interconnect communications networks
   - Attach a variety of communications products to and w/in SNA network
   - Use of public data network facilities
   - Extend SNA-based services to a wide variety of attached components


 In 1977, the International Organization for Standardization (ISO) established
a framework for standards development to allow communications among systems in
a multivendor environment.  The definition of these standards led to the
creation of an OSI reference model.  Implementation of the model or the OSI
open system facilitates communications between dissimilar systems which obey a
set of communications rules, called protocols, independent of their internal
architecture.  OSI precisely defines these communication protocols and OSI
standards make effective communications among systems possible.
 IBM is a strong proponent of OSI and has had OSI products since 1985.  Its
OSI/CS products are designed to work with other vendors' OSI implementations
taking into account regional differences between North America, Europe and
Japan.  IBM OSI/CS products support the OSI protocols as specified in the
following OSI profiles: US GOSIP, UK GOSIP, CEN/CENELEC and CEPT.
 OSI products achieve interoperability through similar conformance to the OSI
standards.  Conformance testing is done to demonstrate conformity to basic
standards or profiles.  Interoperability testing is done to ensure that the
products of one manufacturer work with the products of other manufacturers.
Both are required.  Europe is playing a key role in conformance testing
through the ECC-sponsored European IT Conformance Testing Services.  Similar
activities are underway in the US and Japan.  IBM has offered an OSI
Interoperability Verification Services through the IBM International Network
Services (INS) in Europe since 1986.


 By including the OSI protocls into the SAA Common Commmunications Support,
IBM is extending the list of SAA software interfaces, conventions and
protocols.  This builds on the strengths of IBM SNA and SAA architectures to
provide application solutions in a mixed SNA/OSI operational environment.
Under SAA, SNA and OSI should be viewed as complementary communications
 SNA is the primary architecture for IBM-to-IBM networking.  However, IBM
integrates SNA and OSI into a cohesive network offering which allows the two
to coexist and work together.  OSI provides communications capabilities to
allow customers to build mixed networks using multiple vendors' computing
 The OSI products are intended primarily for communications between IBM and
non-IBM systems.
 In supplying OSI products, IBM is committed to providing value beyond
conformance with the OSI standards.  For example, the OSI/CS for MVS and VM
program products provides network management via NetView.  The NetView network
management product allowss a NetView operator to manage both SNA and OSI
networks and to manage both IBM and non-IBM nodes in an OSI network.  The
OSI/CS also uses the transport and data link control functions provided by the
SNA, VTAM and NCP products.  This use allows sharing adapters and connections
by both SNA and OSI traffic.  VTAM and NCP also participate in detecting and
forwarding network management information to NetView for OSI systems which
they also do for SNA systems.


 TCP/IP is a set of layered communications protocoles that were defined by DOD
(US Department Of Defense) DARPA (Department Advanced Research Project Agencies)
and have evolved.  TCP/IP provides definitions of connectivity functions for
both local and wide area networks.  The collection of TCP/IP interconnected
networks is known as Internet.  Given proper authority, a user on any of these
standard TCP/IP networks can communicate to users on any of the other TCP/IP
networks.  TCP/IP defines higher-level communications applications such as
terminal emulation (TELNET), File Transfer Protocol (FTP) and Simple Mail
Transfer Protocol (SMTP).
 TCP/IP implementations may allow connectivity between different vendors'
systems but do not provide all the communication functions that a user needs.
Each vendor's implementation and the set of functions supported must be compared
by the customer to ensure their requirements are met.
IBM has a large family of TCP/IP products:
   - TCP/IP for MVS
   - TCP/IP for VM
   - TCP/IP for PC DOS
   - The AIX family of UNIX products
   - TCP/IP for OS/400


 TCP/IP and SNA networks can coexist.  The ability to interconnect TCP/IP
networks over an SNA backbone is one example of that coexistance.  Also, users
of a TCP/IP network can logon to IBM SNA hosts using the TELNET facility and
IBM gateway host with both TCP/IP and SNA installed.  Additionally, IBM also
provides application gateway function products to facilitate PROFS to SMTP
mail transfer.  Some customers will use TCP/IP and SNA network coexistence as
their multivendor networking solution until the transition from TCP/IP to OSI
has occured.


 TCP/IP is a layered architecture similar to OSI.  Even though there is a
varying number of layers in the two architectures, there are three areas in
which they have similar functions.  At OSI layers one and two, both TCP/IP and
OSI support X.25, Token-Ring and Ethernet.  At OSI layers three and four, TCP
and IP layers perform functions similar to the Transport and Network Layers in
OSI.  Likewise, the OSI application-to-application functions (OSI layer seven)
are comparable.  Electronic mail (SMTP to X.400), file transfer (FTP to FTAM)
and terminal emulation (TELNET to OSI Virtual Terminal protocol) are
comparable in TCP/IP and OSI.  In most cases, the OSI protocols are, or will
be, richer in function than the TCP/IP equivalent.
 IBM is committed to supporting OSI standards as they evolve.  However, many
customers require interconnection solutions today that OSI standards do not
yet address.  To satisfy those requirements, IBM provides TCP/IP products.
TCP/IP systems will eventually migrate to OSI.

ISDN - History

A different approach of utilizing heterogeneous networks could be based on a
newly developed _international_ standard - Integrated Services Digital Network
(ISDN).  It is a public digital end-to-end telecommunication network
supporting multiple services including, but not limited to, voice and data,
leased lijne transparent service and so on.  ISDN provides digital access to
this network, allowing full utilization of the digital transmission over the
user access line.  ISDN networks are based on a 64Kbps data rate and are
intended to supply current voice facilities, existing data services and a
large number of new and extended facilities.
 Requests for these facilities are made on a common and extendable set of
signalling protocols.  This set of protocols should continue to grow as new
facilities are added.  Applications requesting high bandwidth services are
connected (via the slow speed signal protocol requests) to high bandwidth
transparent digital channels.  The types of proposed facilities, utilizing
ISDN, are basic telephone services, teletex, videotex, facsimile, packed and
circuit switched data, electronic mail, transaction services, energy
management, remote meter reading, remote alarm services, extended telephone
services and enhanced services.
 The definition of ISDN as a public network does not preclude its use in
private network architectures.  On the contrary, it has direct relevance and
applications to the PBX environment on customer premises.
 The evolution to ISDN is a natural consequence of the evolution of the
telephone network.  Originally the telephone system was used exclusively for
analog voice transmission, but later these analog signals came into use to
provide communication between electronic devices such as alarm systems.  The
introduction of modems allows a variety of digital services to communicate at
a wide range of speeds, while the addiction of new data networks has
facilitated the availability of a variety of data processing services.  Each
of these network services has required the definition of separate interfaces,
protocols and lines to the customers' premises.
 During this time, the telephone network evolved from an entirely analog
system to a mixed system including analog and digital components.  In
addition, high-speed digital trunks and digital switching were introduced.
The digitalization of the network has reached customer premises only in some
 The use of analog signals in the local loop necessitates conversion at the
digital exchange (by the network provider) of the analog signal into digital
and reverse to deliver it to the other end.  In the case of data transmission,
the customer must also convert his digital signal to analog prior to placing
the signal on the local loop and then reconvert it to digital at the receiving
end.  The major advantages of using digital technology is end-to-end, high
speed digital communication and performance (fast connection time and better
bit error rate).
 Digital end-to-end data communication means a modemless world.  So, the
integration of voice and data transmission is the most economical solution to
network providers and users.  Digital voice is an easier format to compact and
store to satisfy future office requirements.  THe integration of voice and
data seems to provide the most manageable and economical solution for the
environment of the future, both home and office.

ISDN - Principles Of

 The main feature of the ISDN concept is the support of a wide randge of voice
and nonvoice applications in the same network.  A key element of service
integration for an ISDN is the provision of a range of services using a
limited set of connection types and multipurpose user-network interface
arrangements.  ISDN supports a variety of applications, including both
switched and nonswitched connections.  Switched connections in an ISDN include
both circuit-switched and packet-switched connections and their
 The major motivation for a migration to ISDN is that ISDN will offer more
reliable and enhanced services, moxed voice and data, more bandwidth and fewer
interfaces than existing telecommunication lines at the same price or lower.
ISDN will maximize economy and flexibility.  Working toward the goal of ISDN
is a worldwide effor steered by the CCITT (Consultative Committe on
International Telegraph and Telephone), which initiated the ISDN I Series
standardization work.

ISDN - Components Of

 The major components of an ISDN are user-to-network interface, information
channels, signalling protocols and communications mode.
 *User-To-Netork Interfaces
There are two user-network interfaces presently defined for ISDN applications
-- the basic interface and the primary rate interface.  The basic interface
provides for network access by either small business or residential users.
Its allows for one of three access arrangements: 2B plus D, B plus D or D
channels.  In each case, the D channel operates at 16Kbps transmission rate
and the B channel at 64Kbps.  The access capacty provided to end users will
depend on subscriber loop transmission capacity.  It may vary from country to
 The primary rate interface provides for network access by Private Branch
Exchanges (PBX), LAN gateways and other user nodes such as communication
controllers and clusters.  The primary rate interface is based on existing
multiplexing hierarchies (which are 1544Kpbs in Canada, Japan and the US and
2048Kbps in Europe).  It can consist of B plus D channels, 23B plus D channels
or 30B plus D channels where the total transmission rate for the primary rate
interface should not exceed 1535Kpbs (Canada, Japan and US) or 1920Kbps
(Europe).  The D channel for this interface operates at 64Kbps.
 *Information Channels
ISDN provides two types of channels.  One is a user information transfer
channel, which carries user information at the transmission rates of the
channel.  Several rates have already been defined for these channels, also
called clear channels:
 -B Channel -- a 64Kbps channel
 -H0 Channel -- a 384Kbps channel
 -H1 Channel -- a 1536Kbps channel in Canada, Japan or US or 1920Kbps Europe
The other is the user-network control channel, also called the D channel,
carrying mostly control or signalling information between the end user and the
network.  In some access configurations, packetized user user data may be
interleaved with signalling information.  In such a case, the D channel
becomes a user information channel.
Additional channels, at transmission rates ranging from six to 140Mbps, are
sometimes referred to as broadhand channels required for a broadhand ISDN.
The are also called high bit rate services.
 *Signalling Protocols
Signalling protocols are based on an out-band technique (separate channed) and
message-oriented structure evolutionary from High Level Data Link Control
(HDLC).  Message-oriented signalling allows for the provision of
additional/sophisticated functions which may reside either in the network
domain or on the user's premises.  Signalling protocols have a key
characteristic -- they are common channel protocols.  Currently, voice and
data calls are considered to be separate entities by terminals and networks.
Common channel signalling, in contrast, integrates voice and data shcemes.
 *Communications Modes
There are three communications modes possible for user information transfer.
Circuit-switched mode provide and end-to-end digital connection at the
transmission rate of the selected channel (B or H).  The channel may be either
transparent (granted integrity of the bit sequence) or suited to a particular
application such as telephone service where compression may occur withing the
Packet-switched mode provides two possibilites for sending user packets: via a
user-information channel (B or H) or via the user-to-network control channel
channel (the D channel) interleaved with signalling messages.  The last,
semi-permanten/permanent, refers to a user-information channel (B or H) which
uses a preset path through the ISDN network.  Both network transmission and
switching resources could be used.

ISDN - Service Aspects Of

 ISDN networks will support a wide range of services.  The purpose of the
Consultative Committee of International Telephone and Telegraph (CCITT)
I-Series Recommendations is to provide classifications of the methods for
description of such services as well as to give a basis for the definition of
the network capabilities required by ISDN.  Services supported by ISDN are the
communication capabilities made availible to customers by telecommunication
service providers.
 ISDN provides a set of network capabilitites which are difined by
standardized communication services to be offered to customers.  A service
provision by the network provider to a customer connected to an ISDN may cover
all or part of the means required to fully suupport the service.
 Telecommunication services are divided into two broad catagories.  Bearer
service provides a capability for the transmission of signals between
user-network interfaces.  It offers the connection to the network and covers
layers one to three of the OSI reference model.  Telecommunication service
provides the complete capability, including terminal equipment functions, for
communication between users according to established protocols.  It offers
connection to the network and covers layers one to three of the OSI reference
model and layers four to seven also.



Lotus Development Corporation has a new product due out in 1991, called
"Household Marketplace."  It's a database on CDROM.  It has the estimated
income and a profile of the buying habits of 120 million US residents.
That's a high percentage of the US population -- the odds are pretty good
that YOU are in the Lotus database.

A Lotus spokesman has said that the company is concerned about privacy
issues, so to help prevent misuse of the data only legitimate businesses
can get the disk.  With easy access to a laser printer, a POBox, and/or a
fax machine, however, it is hard to see how Lotus can determine the
legitimacy of anyone, however, and I'm sure that with minor effort almost
anyone will be able to purchase Marketplace.  The cost, by the way, is
under $1000 with quarterly updates available.

The database does not contain any of the data covered by the Fair Credit
Practices Act so Lotus is under no legal obligation to let you see what
they are saying about you.  In fact, during interviews they have said that
there is NO WAY for an individual to review their personal data, nor are
there any provisions to make corrections on what is recorded.

Lotus will remove anyone from their database who writes to them.
Send a letter to:

    Lotus Development Corp.
    Attn:  Market Name Referral Service
    55 Cambridge Parkway
    Cambridge, MA 02142


          Attention all Hackers, Journalist, and Federal Agents,

    A new board has been opened up to the Computer Underground Society:

                         FACE to FACE @ 713 242 6853
                             Phrack distribution!
                       Home to Network Information Access

         This Bulletin Board System is designed to open a new era-- the era of
the 1990s Computer Underground. Security Agents, Journalists, and Hackers from
all over the country are invited to call in an attempt to carry on intelligent
conversation. It's a pure communications medium between the two sides. Access
is guaranteed to anyone who may wish to call. As you might know, the new
Phrack is out, and is available at F2F.

    --**-- News Flash:

                   Phrack Classic 33 is scheduled to be released before
    Christmas! As of yet though, no exact date has been set in stone. However,
    Phrack is accepting submissions openly-- you may send them to any of the
    following addresses:

                   FACE to FACE BBS @ 713 242 6853



                         "MODEM BLUES : NUCLEAR GERBIL"

Well, I got my modem
Just sixteen
1200 baud, y'know what I mean
I could hack into Randall's with that
And I learned other nifty crap
Like how to make people think I'm cool
A five-page ANSI signoff to make you drool
I love my modem and my ego, too
And good warezzzz make me want to spoo!
But, ask me to post what I'm thinking about
I laugh at you to try and figure me out
I'm into door games, downloads, chat lines too,
But posting intelligently I can't do!
'Cause I'm a 'm0e'
And I've got the
'Houston m0dem blues'...


Thank you, thank you, fuck you all & goodnight.


>From    :Averon #59
To      :Guardian Of Time #21
Subject :Privacy..?
DateTime:5:31 pm  Mon Nov 12, 1990

Yep.. my point exactly.  The government considers itself above the law,
therefore pays only marginal lip service to procedures.  If the SS can get
away with terrorizing some folks who scare easily, then it WILL.

It doesn't matter who's right and who's wrong.. if you are wrongly accused of
criminal acts, YOU pay the price.  Defense is expensive, court/jail time is a
drain on your physical/mental energies, society NEVER forgives, even if you
are acquitted.  How can you possibly explain away all those federales pawing
thru your stuff, the flashing blue-and-whites in your driveway, your neighbors
being questioned?  "Yeah, sure you're innocent.. what'd you REALLY do?  Bet
you plea bargained with them, eh?"

Sundevil is a pre-emptive first strike against perceived criminals; the goal
is not to round up some collosal gang of hackers, rather its sole purpose is
to confiscate equipment, strike fear in the hearts of those who are borderline
illegal, and grandstand for the media.  Equipment is rarely returned, and when
it is, it's often damaged and unusable.  The non-computing public is willing
to let these "hackers" suffer because they don't understand!  If it was
Nintendo games and Acura Integras being rounded up, things'd be different...
but the publicity has been unfairly stacked.

We are living in an age of "Wars": War on Drugs, War on Free Speech, War on
Pornography, War on Hackers... what's next?

See you behind the barbed wire.


                                By Sir Lawrence
                     Transcribed and Edited by Lord Macduff

        I have been a member of the modem community for about seven years.
During that time period, I have watched literally hundreds of bulletin boards
go up and go down. A great majority of these systems were based on a public
message and file exchange. But a few of these systems were dedicated to the
exchange and distribution of information... Information that was not usually
available on a regular basis. In my day, I have seen files on VAX/VMS, phone
switching systems, hacking, phreaking, and anything else that one could dream
of. But one thing that constantly has me pondering at all hours of the night
is the state of our national defense.
	How close and how often do we come to pressing the button? Defined as
DEFCON-1, the state of panic which is actually sub-defined as World War III,
is something that has not been reached... yet.
        There are five levels of International Status. DEFCON-5 is what we'd
all like to be at... unless you're a real nut case and have absolutely no hope
for the future of mankind. DEFCON(s) 4-1 are lesser states of "panic". A dumb
reference, yet a valid one, is the movie "Wargames". Although a liberal dose
of fiction was mixed in as far as the actual methods of hacking and such, it
makes one think "Just how often DO hackers break into systems like that and
cause problems possibly leading to the destruction of the world?" [Editor's
Note -- Not as often as certain federal agencies would like to think. Go
catch some REAL criminals instead of picking on us modem users...]
        Another question that comes to mind is "How often do Soviet troop
movements or something of that nature cause a defcon decrease to bring us to
the brink of global extermination... and the public never knows about it?"
During the Kennedy Administration, this country was brought to what is the
equivalent of DEFCON-2 when the Soviets brought their missiles into Cuba in
the early 1960's. From what transcripts say about the incident, we were
seconds away from DEFCON-1... what a pisser, huh? Although that happened seven
years before I was born, my generation would have taken it with a grain of
salt and looked at it as a chance to get a tan. (A real good one, I might
add...) Our country goes seconds from World War III and we never found out
until years later. How often does this happen? Personally, I'd like to know
when Vodka is going to replace Coca-Cola as the national beverage. I'd also
like to know when fish eggs are going to be put on the menu at fast food
         At this very moment [4:27 AM on Sunday, November 11, 1990 if anyone
is curious... -Ed.] United States and Allied troops are in the Middle East
preparing for war. The media reports that all the troops are over there just
sitting around bored to death. [Yet another Editor's Note -- Due to a time
control problem, I will finish this essay instead of Sir Lawrence...
Apologies for the interruption.] It's very possible we could have another
Vietnam on our hands. Hell, Saddam Hussain is not going to stop with the
invasion of Kuwait... There's a very interesting parallel between Hussain and
a short German guy who started World War II... I'm not so sure why everyone's
worried about German Reunification -- It's the Iraquis we SHOULD be worrying
about! Hussain insists that the American citizens that he is holding hostage
in various hotels in Baghdad are "Guests". We might do well to round up every
last Iraqi citizen in this country who has a visa or green card and stick 'em
all in ONE Motel 6 somewhere in the midwest. Let Tom Bodett deal with them for
a while... Perhaps the CIA could go blow up some of their planes or important
buildings... Goodness knows they've done the same to us enough times to make
the average citizen want to puke. If we hurry up and storm the place NOW,
before Saddam figures out how to put together that mail-order nuclear bomb,
we could take the whole place over in a matter of days. We could use that oil.
The weapons manufacturers would make a fortune, prehaps even create new jobs.
Our economy could USE a boost, with the gas prices what they are. [Sidenote:
Who's to say that Exxon isn't financing Saddam Hussain?] Sell the entire
country to Russia for them to use as parking, for that matter.
        The projected costs for Operation Desert Shield are in the billions,
while it has accomplished virtually nothing. Truly another case of YOUR TAX
	But who's to say if this is for real? This may be a conspiracy by the
oil companies (who secretly own the government) to make more money. The
government controls the media, which is our only source if information from
over there. Small wonder they want to supress publications like PHRACK...
They aren't from the government-controlled media.




When will machines become intelligent?  What will the transition be like?
I see three possible scenarios:

1)  Sudden introduction of machine consciousness technology.  This could be
    a result of some essential feature of intelligence, some sort of critical
    mass, which comes into being suddenly.  For example, if consciousness
    required the supernatural entity commonly known as a "soul", consciousness
    would not be demonstrated until we build the first machine which is a
    suitable vehicle for a soul.  When the soul takes possession, consciousness
    suddenly results.

    Alternatively, consciousness might require some period of introspection
    or self-teaching.  Pre-intelligent machines would be unable to enter
    this positive feedback loop.  The first intelligent machine would
    puzzle its inventors by going into a meditation state for a while, then
    POW! ...  "I think therefore I am!"

2)  Gradual introduction of machine consciousness.  In this scenario, the
    definition of intelligence is very blurred.  The last people who will
    admit that machines are intelligent will be the machine-builders themselves,
    because they understand the inner workings and see the machines as
    mechanisms.  There will be a gradual continuum of intelligence up to
    the most sophisticated programs, which are likely to be video games
    and management information systems.  The upper range of this continuum
    will advance slowly, but will eventually reach the level of machines
    which seem obviously intelligent when viewed by the lay public.

    A likely side-effect will be a generational break between two generations
    of programmers.  There will be a generation of old geezers who insist
    machines are not intelligent because they understand all the tricks
    machines use to fake intelligence.  And there will be the younger generation
    who understand that faking intelligence is actually the same thing
    as intelligence.

3)  The entry of intelligence into practical use is undiscovered until some
    point after the fact.  Machines which seem "obviously machine-like" but
    which contain some elementary features of reasoning become common tools.
    It's only years later that some creative person invents definitions for
    intelligent behavior which make it clear that we've really been using
    intelligent machines all along without seeing (or at least acknowledging)
    It will be this conceptual framework which will snap us into a sudden
    awareness that intelligence has been achieved, or perhaps that
    intelligence is a certain quantity which our machines possess in a
    small degree and which our brains possess in some larger degree.



In article <1990Nov20.020910.18823@ddsw1.MCS.COM>, (Sameer Parekh) writes:
>       I think that some of the Chatsubo organizational materials should
> be posted here for lack of another newsgroup. (And another one to organize
> Chatsubo would be pointless.)  If these materials were posted in
> alt.cyberpunk.chatsubo, they would destroy the continuity of Chatsubo.
>       Here we should post the framework of Chatsubo.  I know that
> Chatsubo should in itself be basically anarchic, but what would happen
> of say, someone decided to kil someone else, yet that person did accept the
> death.  That is the reason for a basic framework.

First some history for folks in alt.config.

Around the start of November, a participant in alt.callahans decided
to create a new milieau based on some of the new trends in science
fiction.  She did this in the newsgroup devoted to the discussion
of this, alt.cyberpunk.  She also invited a bunch of her friends
to join in.

Some of us existing readers of alt.cyberpunk were less than
overjoyed that the newsgroup was being turned into a costume
party version of  Especially when some of these
new people said they weren't going to leave.  Fortunatly, the
newsgroup alt.cyberpunk.chatsubo was created as a refuge for
these poor lost souls. (Even if they are a little scorched around
the edges.)

Now, you want to hold the metadiscussions about alt.cyberpunk.chatsubo
in alt.cyberpunk.

Sorry, I'm not interested in who did what to whom, and what
color the wallpaper should be.

You have two options:
1. Get some discipline in your subject lines so that the metadiscussions
can take place in alt.cyberpunk.chatsubo. (The lack of such discipline
in the first round is the main grievance against the Chatsuboites)
I suggest including the keyword "Metadiscussion" in the subject line.

Or if that is too obtrusive:
1. Create a new newsgroup (alt.cyberpunk.chatsubo.backstage,
alt.cyberpunk.chatsubo.d, ...)

I don't care where you play your role-playing games, just as
long as it isn't on top of someone elses newsgroup.




>I've begun to notice that a certain fraction of postings are now these
>long, rambling, literary creations. I don't think this is the best way
>to discuss the literary and prognosticative matters involved with
>believe this to be primarily a discussion group about the literary
>form known as cyberpunk, and topics directly related to it. Postings
>that are "in the cyberpunk mode" are related in a superficial way
>  or try

The brown leather jacket goes along for the ride as its wearer goes up to
the bar.  He notices one of the crowd complaining about how the talk flows
in here.  "erich" seems disturbed that having crossed the threshold of an
area labeled Interface he is mired (??) in an interface.
"Barkeep," and Michael holds out a bill for another drink.
"Paid for." replies the bartender.
"Wha? well in that case give me one of whatever, whoever bought when they
paid for mine."  He starts to think about art school, and the arguments about
critisizing work by talking about it and critisizing work by doing work which
shows how you think it ought to be done.  How it's one thing to say that
straight or traditional photography was boring, that something new was needed;
and quite another thing to demonstrate your belief by creating non-boring, yet
understandable work outside of those streams.

The barkeeper interrupted the thoughts by setting down a pitcher of saki with
a traditional cup and a matching teacup.  Michael's quizzical expression was
returned with a small knowing grin.  A sniff tells that the saki is excellent.
"You have regulars with good taste I see," he says to the bartender as he lays
own a tip.

"Erich, how can postings 'in the cyberpunk mode' be 'related in a superficial
way' to cyberpunk mode?  They are examples of the mode at work, showing its
strength and weakness in the most direct and verifiable mode available.
You seem put off by the mehtod, I would guess that you would travel across
Montana on the interstate, or in a plane, and miss the wonders of the great
northern plains that using the roads that follow the Lewis & Clark trail can
offer.  Or closer to home for you, a trip to San Francisco would be on one
of the "we take off every hour" flights, instead of up 101.  Quick, to the
point, and devoid of involvement.

That's your choice.  But we've been labeling our road as Interface, you don't
have to take the exit (detour?).  If you choose to join us remember that we
are involved here, and we want to argue our points by example instead of

Well in any case, Some benefactor has provided me with saki and two cups.
Would you like some?"

Michael sits down, pours the warm fluid with an air of reverence and takes
a sip from the cup he has chosen for himself.  He looks at Erich and settels
down into the overstuffing of the armchair.

"Pirsig talks about quality in Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance.
Quality as a distinct entity.  Our quality is cyberpunk by example.  Though
at first glance it seems 'rambling' you may find that it is the direct route
to discovering the limits of our tools today.  Metadiscussions just don't
seem to fit the bill, to me at least."



> I used to see plans of boxes all the time.  Does anyone remember the
> blotto box?  It seems that someone had the impression the FBI used a
> method called lock and trace, which kept the voltage on your phone
> line at a high level, so they g-men could trace you and you couldn't
> disconnect the line (i.e. hang up)  The blotto box was designed to
> play a radio or some other electric device to lower the voltage and
> disconnect the line before you were traced.  Does any of this seem
> even remotely real?  Obviously with ess you can be traced instantly
> now, but what about 5-10 years ago?

    It was true 5-10 years ago.  They would raise the voltage of your line
to 90v or so, which made a loud noise in your ear and *kept* the phone line
open.  Try to hang up and the phone would ring again.  You might not be on
the line, but your path would stay open.

    The Blotto Box was simple:  Connect the red/green wires to an AC outlet
and plug your light in.  This would use up all the power, supposedly.  Also,
supposedly, they tried to compensate by increasing the power, which the
light bulb promptly ate up.  In the end, the FBI computer would melt from
generating that much power.  But the phone line's fuses would blow before
that would *really* happen, thus disconnecting your path.

    I think this method of trace, at the fastest, took 10 seconds.  Plenty
of time to unplug your light and put it on the line.  But you've got to
know you're being traced...

    So you stick a voltmeter on your line.  This became kind of popular.
Since old kludgy bugs and taps used to drain power from your line, you not
only knew when someone was tracing, but when someone was tapping.  But it
was only a tool for the paranoid, since how many people actually got traced
this way?


Message #  31 of 40
Subject:   Hi etc...
From:      [MODERATED]
To:        ALL
Sent:      11/21/90 at 7:58 pm

Hi, all.

Yeah, I really want to see some people from the Establishment log on.  Then
this place should start a-movin'.

I dunno about Sun D II, some people in the in 415 area code - have been
busted.  The thing that bothers me the most is, as usual, the methods.  If
these boys had been ANY other type of criminal, they would have been treated
more fairly (ok, with the possible exception of any criminal who happens to be
black - the get treated as porrly much of the time).

And if any of you all seemingly nonexistent security folk wanna refute that,
let's talk.

But I think the statement that indicates the levels that are currently being
stooped to is that we might get our phone lines tapped (TAPPED!) for legally
calling this completely legal BBS.

But hey - just another bit of evidence that the US is discarding its original
Constitution for one more sympathetic to, say, Nazi Germany's.


Sub-Board: FACE to FACE

Message #  32 of 40
Subject:   SD II
From:      [MODERATED]
To:        ALL
Sent:      11/21/90 at 8:39 pm

Uncensored was making a big thing out of 9-12 supposed busts in New York.  I've
made a few phone calls trying to find out how true it was, but no ones
talking...  CLLI Code went down at about that time though, so there might be
some truth to it....


Sub-Board: Operation "SunDevil"

Message #  14 of 19
Subject:   naughty stuff
From:      [MODERATED]
To:        ALL
Sent:      11/21/90 at 8:11 pm

So, you think maybe people would eventually come to their senses?

A judge in Oakland seems to have authorized a wiretap because person a, who had
been convicted of illegally entering a computer and... changing a Christmas
mailing list, had person b's name and phone number amongst his hacking notes.

In fact, the police not only got the original search warrant for person a
because ONE company had his number traced ONCE, but got a warrant for person b
and, after failing to find anything incriminating, got the tap for person b.

Sure enough, person b had a knock on his door a few days ago..  but that's not
the point.  Even gangs in San Francisco get better treatment from judges.

OK.  Enough ranting.


Sub-Board: FACE to FACE

Message #  42 of 78
Subject:   Re: Why...
From:      [MODERATED]
To:        [ Anonymous ]
Sent:      11/23/90 at 5:58 pm

I can answer that at least in part since I work for a corporation and my
job is to stop 'hackers'. I mean this in the prevention sense rather
than by working with the cops but I've done that also. In a sense some
of you have created me -> by attacking computers that are necessary to
our business, you have created fear and anger in the part of management.
This has led to desire for punishment and revenge which is not surprising
to any student of psychology.

This has even affected me to some extent as sometimes I see myself as
the handle implies, a wizard but sometimes I see myself as a cat,
watching a mouse hole, looking for a nice meal of mice. After all,
if you poke your head thru the hole, you are responsible for your own

Now, I do feel that there has to be balancing in sentencing and that
someone convicted for serious crimes, whether white or blue collar
ought to get much more severe sentences than tresspass-class cracking
but system crashing and repeat offences are another matter.


Sub-Board: FACE to FACE

Message #  46 of 78
Subject:   General
From:      [MODERATED]
To:        ALL
Sent:      11/23/90 at 11:38 pm

     After a few years of leaving the computer "underground" and heading out
into the world of business computing, I feel that I have seen both sides of
what is supposed to be the "law".  Why do I get the funny feeling that the
further that I delve into the "legal" side of it, the further I get away from
what is really the truth and is more moral than the so-called legal users of
the system.

     Okay, so I may seem to have some contempt for the system.  About four
years ago, I belonged to a group known simply (hah!) as "Omnipotent, Inc."  We
really didn't think of ourselves as a "hacker ring" since we were rarely
involved in hacking outside our own little world of suburbia hidden away
somewhere in 713.  Then one day the roof came crashing down on us.  Of the
original seven members.  Two were arrested three (including myself) were made
to pay for "damages" done to school computers and business computers and
long-distance services.  The rest of the members I have not been in contact
with since that time.  The two that were arrested were given probation and the
usual community service since the charges were not viewed as being serious.
However, the scary fact is that the poeple that were investigating this
so-called "hacker group" (these are direct quotes from a Southwestern Bell
Security employee) had no idea of the extent of what was really happening.  The
investigation, if there ever was truly one, must have been a half-assed job
that truly didn't check to see if we were behind half the things that were
going on.


Sub-Board: FACE to FACE

Message #  53 of 78
Subject:   Re: General
From:      [MODERATED]
To:        [MODERATED]
Sent:      11/25/90 at 4:24 am

first, call me sometime, i think your mind is going..

about msg #51.. i seriously doubt any company is losing any appreciable amount
to hacking.  I understand that some might feel the information is too sensive
and invest to prevent it from getting out.  Of course, they could also keep on
withe the southern bell estimates of $200K to change passwords..  boy, sure
would like to be the person who did that.. 'bout 50K an hour..

about msg #52.. in most of the cases about hackers you hear about, no damage is
ever actually done, by normal standards.  problem is what the companies
consider damage, ie use of computer time & resources..


Sub-Board: FACE to FACE

Message #  61 of 78
Subject:   Jerry Crown!
From:      [MODERATED]
To:        ALL
Sent:      11/26/90 at 12:42 am

Hey, man, what's up?

So, what can we learn from your post - if, as I assume as well, it is genuine?

We know of your ego; not to offend, mine is pretty immense too, but it isn't
just anyone who'll come right out and say "I AM Big Brother and I know where
you live!"  And we have yet another bit of evidence that that is the way the
"powers that be" think - we're mice.

We know a little - not much, yet, maybe talk to us? - of what you do.  You log
on to boards under, I am assuming, false pretences, to... what?  Talk to us,
eh?  I can assume you do it to catch people abusing GTE's telecomm. services
(Sprint and the erstwhile Telenet), but then for what do you care about us?

My questions to you -
        1) What exactly is it that you do?

        2) Why - both personally (does it excite you as much as it did Stoll?)
           and as a corporation (how much cash does Sprint claim it loses, how
           much does the extra electricity really cost y'all?)

        3) My biggest question - what is your moral analysis of the situation?
           What is your opinion of the various crimes you investigate, from
           code fraud to cracking systems via x.25 nets?



Sub-Board: FACE to FACE

Message #  70 of 78
Subject:   Re: Why...
From:      [MODERATED]
To:        [ Anonymous ]
Sent:      11/26/90 at 8:03 am

The reason the pheds are cracxking down is because of a statistic I heard over
the weekend.
The average bank robbery net $5000.00
The average computer crime nets $300,00
It explains a few things.  Hacking for profit is not exactly the most "ethical"
things to do.  In, fact, hacker by definition do not hack for anything other
than knowledge and challenge.


Sub-Board: FACE to FACE

Message #  73 of 78
Subject:   Re: General
From:      [MODERATED]
To:        [MODERATED]
Sent:      11/26/90 at 1:28 pm

  You are quite wrong does the word Industrial Espionage ring any bells?  How
much would coca cola lose it their formula got out?  They are ver very
protective of that I even doubt they'd prosecute I assume they would call up
Jake or Myer Lanski and kill.  As to loses yes it does happen on a large
degree but not by us.  Individuals who destroy for a living are to blame, and
wse end up as the scapegoats.  As for the governments interest in hackers fear
is what comes to mind if you don't understand something kill it or get rid of
it.  That has always been the theory, and because hackers have power to pry
where they shouldn't we might learn of some nasty thing thier doing that we
shouldn't know about i.e. using human beings off the street for bio and
chemical weapons tests.  Or do you think the mighty US mass produces chemical
and biological agents without first testing them out on people to be sure they
work?  Enough of that I just prefer honesty not lies from our government.  The
old cliche "Practice what you preach" comes to mind right now.  As for the
constituition it's NOTHING, but a worthless piece of paper noone cares at all
look at Noriega.  They bugged conversations between him and his attourney,
disallowed him to take out funds to pay for his trial, etc...


Sub-Board: FACE to FACE

Message #  78 of 78
Subject:   Re: Re: Sprintdude
From:      [MODERATED]
To:        [MODERATED]
Sent:      11/26/90 at 9:53 pm

I dont think anyone is trying to turn this into a rag fest..  Its just
extremely hard to believe that someone who has supposedly been involved with
security investigations as long as he claims to have been would be a little
more mature in his postings.

The security/law enforcement/etc field is SUPPOSED to have an unbiased opinion
concerning matters that pertain to their work.  Just like the press.  That is
how they supposedly come up with their "professional" opinions.  In the case of
our friend Mr. Jerry here, he seems to have a personality problem, or perhaps
its just a lack of professionalism.  Personally, I dont think he is involved in
security.  Someone mentioned the idea of a plant, or just some "kid" having fun
pretending to be Mr. Big-Bad-Security-Agent.  Anyone who has been involved with
security that long should at least be professional.

Well...Thats my $.02.

"Little, yellow, different, better."


Sub-Board: Operation "SunDevil"

Message #  30 of 31
Subject:   Re: stuff
From:      [MODERATED]
To:        [MODERATED]
Sent:      11/26/90 at 3:09 am

Search affidavits and warrants tend to be canned "cliff notes" type of things,
and they generally list things like books, notes, cassettes, and anything
electronic that looks suspicious. The raiders are generally not knowledgeable
and go a bit wild (see Len Rose, Steve Jackson, Doc Cypher, etc). In one raid
they took a copy of Gordon Meyer's M.A. thesis. They've taken answering
machines, telephones, and even private letters and paper unrelated to
computers belonging to others. Educating judges and other about what's
reasonable and what's not is one they'll be taking the
microwave and refrigerator.



In article <1990Nov20.020910.18823@ddsw1.MCS.COM> zane@ddsw1.MCS.COM
(Sameer Parekh) writes:
> I think that some of the Chatsubo organizational materials should
> be posted here for lack of another newsgroup. (And another one to organize
> Chatsubo would be pointless.)  If these materials were posted in
> alt.cyberpunk.chatsubo, they would destroy the continuity of Chatsubo.

I think you're sadly mistaken.  I didn't want your Creative Writing 101
assignments in here in the first place, I'm certainly not interested in
the supporting material.

As far as the "continuity" of alt.cyberpunk.chatsubo is concerned, that's
_your_ worry.
>         Here we should post the framework of Chatsubo.  I know that
> Chatsubo should in itself be basically anarchic, but what would happen
> of say, someone decided to kil someone else, yet that person did accept the
> death.  That is the reason for a basic framework.

Keep it _out_ of alt.cyberpunk, please.  This is _not_ what I subscribe to
the group for.

Here's a good idea.  Maybe Tim and I can come in with blasters, and kill

>         One idead for the framework that I have regards the bartender.
> I think that he/she can have an active role, but not _too_ active.
> What I mean is that he/she can act and do things, but they mustn't be
> very active actions. (now THAT is one COHERENT sentence)  People when
> they post should make the bartender do things, and respond, and the like,
> but the actions shouldn't have a drastic effect.
> (I hope this last paragraph was understood)

Just about as well written as most of the other examples of this ilk I've

> Well, seeya there.

Not on a dare.

Lefty  (              |          "And you may ask yourself,
D:.O:.D:., C:.M:.C:.                |             'How do I work this?'"
End of article 4821 (of 4826)--what next? [npq]



Language is first and foremost the reproduction
mechanism for memes.  A meme (as defined by Dawkins in
_The_Selfish_Gene_) is an individual particle of
culture, just as a gene is an individual particle of
genetic inheritance.  A meme can be an individual
thought, such as "soup is good food" or a complex of
thoughts, such as a religion.

Language is how memes jump from person to person.  On
the transmit end, the language organ photographs a
portion of the network of crystallized intelligence and
encodes it for shipment.  On the receive end, it decodes
the package and temporarily installs it into the
corresponding place in the receiver's network.  The code
is free of the context of the transmitter and receiver.
For example, if I say "This tastes like fish." that
would seem like a good thing to a receiver who likes
fish, or a bad thing to one who doesn't.  I.e. the
message doesn't carry the context with it unless it is
specifically encoded, as in "This tastes like -- yuck --
fish.".  (Voice inflection can transmit the same
information, but that is just another form of specific
encoding of the context.)

I can tell you anything in my conscious mind, from why I
don't eat pickles to why I don't go to church.
Likewise, I can input almost any idea from you.  I might
not agree with the truth or falseness of what you say,
but I can try it on for size.  I can map it into my
network and see if it fits.

Somehow, the language organ is like some sort of robot
arm, with random-access pick-and-place reach into
arbitrary places in the network, as illustrated below.

    * - *   * - * - * - *   * - * - *   * - * - *
    |   |       |       |   |       |       |   |
    * - * - * - *   *   * - * - * - * - *   * - *
        |       |   |       |           |   |
        * - * - * - *       * - * - * - * - *
                |           |       |
                *       * - *       *

     --------------   /\  V
     |  Language  |  /  \ |
     |  Encoder/  |_/    \|
     |  Decoder   |

How could an organ have such all-invasive access?  It
could selectively activate individual particles of
crystallized intelligence using an address bus.  For
example, when the address bus for the food department of
my brain carries the code for "pickles", an address
decoder activates my pickle-agents including one
connected to my "too much salt" agent.  Seventy binary
signals can address more than a billion billion
particles, so obviously such an address bus needn't be
unreasonably large.  (It would probably be much larger
than seventy binary signals, however, in order that a
random address picked out by an agent would be likely to
be globally unique, much like the system used to assign
credit card numbers.)

My guess is that the language organ has two parts:  a
centralized encode/decode part (Broca's and Wernicke's
areas, etc.) hooked up to the hearing and vocal organs,
and a distributed part -- the "robot arm" -- consisting
of one or more sparsely encoded buses capable of
interrogating all of the conscious agents and agencies
and even placing new agents and constructing new
agencies, although the newly-arrived memes seem to have
weak connections, and require reinforcement from the
existing network to become permanent.  (I.e. you are
much more likely to believe your own conclusions than
those spoken to you or read in a book, until you've had
time to consider them.)

In an earlier posting, I claimed that thoughts are the
experience of agents crossing the fluid vs. crystallized
interface.  Now, I'd go further and claim that dreams
are the experience of agents and agencies spontaneously
forming and re-dissolving while the robot arm is idle.
We don't perceive dreams while we're awake because
agents and agencies constructed by the arm are formed at
a higher voltage or pressure or something.  While the
arm is active, we don't see the spontaneous activity,
just as we don't see the stars when the sun is out.  The
higher intensity of the connections created by the arm
is lacking in the agents and agencies formed during
dreams, which is why dreams are forgotten so quickly.

New thoughts begin in this haze of spontaneous activity
(which is always present, even though we only perceive
it at night).  A new thought occurs when two
crystallized agents need a connection, and a fluid agent
jumps into the gap.  If the connection is really needed,
it gets reinforced and becomes permanent.


         Warning: Be wary of Japanese bearing microchips : KEVIN HUGHES

        _Mondo_2000_ is getting famous around the Bay Area!  Within a few
months of the number two issue, articles about the magazine and related
interviews have appeared in the (East Bay) _Express_ and the San Francisco
_Examiner_.  Queen Mu, _Mondo_'s 'Domineditrix', was actually interviewed as
part of a local news series on cracking, to be mentioned later.  Usenet
posters and _Mondo_ letters page writers attest to heavy perusal of _Mondo_
in high-tech workplaces (such as Intel and Sun Microsystems).  The _Examiner_
says _Mondo_ is "_huge_ in England and Japan".  Again, you can subscribe
(getting four issues) by sending $24, check or money order, to _Mondo_2000_,
P.O. Box 10171, Berkeley, CA, 94709.  Airmail or overseas subscriptions are
$50.  Their telephone number is (415) 845-9018; their fax number is (415)
649-9630.  The only place close to the UCB campus that you can find _Mondo_
(and where I first found it) is at Dave's Smoke Shop on 2444 Durant Avenue -
(415) 841-7292.
        Another publication that is computer oriented and rather metaphysical
is _The_Node_, "For hackers with soul", based in San Francisco.  It states
that it is ". . .published quarterly by Performing Arts Social Society, Inc.,
to foster the use of computers in improving the human condition in the 21st
Century.  It is produced with the help of Utopian Technology.  You can sub-
scribe to _The_Node_ for $12 a year.  For $18 a year, you can receive _The_
Node_ plus four copies of _RockHEAD_, a music/psychology publication 'for
rockers with brains.'  _The_Node_ actively fosters the idea of 'psychographic
networking' linking up people around shared values and interests. . .".  The
address is _The_Node_, P.O. Box 1174, San Francisco, CA, 94101.  If you live
in or around the Bay Area, you can pick up _The_Node_ free from a newsstand.
        Some cyberarticles I've seen around include a great article on Tim
Leary's involvement with VR and such in the S.F. _Examiner_'s _Image_ magazine,
the 11/4/90 issue.  A good article on VR written by _Omni_ magazine columnist
Steve Ditlea appears in the 10/21/90 _This_World_ magazine, which I believe
comes with the S.F. _Examiner_'s Sunday paper as well.  That article was
adapted from a series running in _New_York_ magazine.  A decent interview
with _Mondo_'s editor R.U. Sirius is featured in the 9/28/90 East Bay
I find that trying to get educational information from computer
science students is like trying to find a contact lens in a sandstorm.  But
I encourage those both in and out of college to attend lectures and buy texts
teaching subjects they're interested in but not necessarily enrolled in.  A
little information can go a long way, and you won't have to endure the stress
of tests and grading.  Here's some information to help you find more
information using Internet:
        If you have telnet capability, you can access dozens of computer-
based library systems in as many locations.  Besides the GLADIS and MELVYL
systems at UCB, you can look up books at the Universities of Delaware,
Hawaii, Chicago, Illinois, Kansas, and Maine, to name a few.  An updated
list of these catalogs and databases is available - just ftp to UMD5.UMD.EDU,
login as 'anonymous', and the list will be in the 'info-lib' directory.  The
list was last updated on 8/5/90.
        I recommend looking at CARL, the Colorado Alliance of Research
Libraries.  The database contains a list of other useful public Internet
databases.  Telnet to (  One neat place I found
through CARL was a geographic information database with thousands of locations,
ZIP codes, latitudes, and longitudes.  Just type in a place, a ZIP, or nearly
anything, and the server will find the matching relevant data almost
instantly.  I find it a lot of fun for quick searches and trivia.  Telnet to, using port 3000 (type 'telnet
        The Cleveland Free-Net also seems worth exploring around a bit.
Telnet to 129.22.8.(75,76,77,78 or 82).  A list of anonymously ftp-able sites
can be found on some help or Internet newsgroups, or it can be found by just
asking around your local network.  Or you can email me and I'll send you a
copy.  Newsgroups that some reading this newsgroup may find appealing are:
alt.cyberspace, alt.cyb-sys,, (.neural-nets,
.philosophy), comp.mail.multi-media, comp.society (.futures),
nology, sci.environment, sci.nanotech (there's a good discussion on this
one), sci.virtual-worlds, and no doubt a lot more.  You can also find a list
of public access UNIX/Usenet sites regularly posted and updated at least
monthly on the newsgroup pubnet.nixpub.
        Have fun and try using the system to your advantage for once!


        In message ID, J. Eric Townsend
( types:

] Old technology is not useless -- it can be adapted to solve problems
] you don't have a budget for.

] That 512K Mac in your closet would be a perfect gift for a researcher
] in a computer-third-world country...

        Absolutely!  But a 512K Mac, IMHO, isn't such a hot _multimedia_
machine these days.  I know of a computing center that appletalks about
five upgraded five year old Macs, and successfully has them run Microsoft
Word 4.0 and PageMaker 3.0.  There's also a UC Berkeley Mac physics lab that
uses a 512 exclusively for cleansing viruses.  It's a great inexpensive
approach.  I think as more people learn computing, there will be a good
amount of American and especially international third-world students who will
learn on old technology, because it's very cheap and it still works.  But by
then I'm sure the fairly well-to-do will be expecting (and getting) cheap
state-of-the-art technology.  Today there are those who always insist on
getting the most up-to-date computer and gadget, just as there are those who
are comfortable using old Commodore 64's or whatever to get what they need
done.  Myself, I wouldn't mind scavenging a flea market for a Timex-Sinclair
or even an Altair, just to use for waking me up in the morning. :^)

    ______   Kevin Hughes                      |   "The problem with    |
 --_\  __/_------------------------------------| the future is that it  |---
   \ \ \  /  Internet: | usually arrives before |
 ---\/\/\/-------------------------------------| we're ready for it."   |---


64/65: TAP
Date: Mon Nov 12 23:32:56 1990

Well... good questions, i have answered them before during summercon 1989, but
for those that didn't hear or know i will go over it again.

TAP quit publishing in 1984 after a big FBI coverup type thing. They broke
into the editors house, stole most of his papers and mailing lists and what
they could not carry they set on fire and burned. In 1989 it was decided TAP
would rise from the ashes and rumors of the past to continue into the future.
Aristotle and I (Predat0r) obtained permission from the last two editors of
TAP, who were TUC and Cheshire Catalyst that we could publish TAP. they said
they would not support us, but did not care that we restarted it. So they
turned it over to us with all legal rights. including the ISSN number for the
magazine. under current copyright laws each issue of TAP is copywritten by the
general definition of the copyright laws. since i am the publisher i could sue
someone for reprinting an article and not asking for or giving credit to TAP.
it gets complicated and is a matter for lawyers and all and i don't feel like
posting an official TAP is this and can do this, and so forth, i take no stand
on anything until my lawyer advises me again. and i am not wasting money
unless something big comes out of it. like someone else trying to start a TAP


Well, this concludes NIA issue 67.  If anyone wishes (hint) to
submit some material, please do so at the
You can get our files from f2f and soon the CuD archives.  Look for
upcoming issues soon (including HP and more DEC manuals).
Well, its getting closer to winter so to end the file with these wise words:
-Never eat yellow snow.